Doctors in The Dock

[Dedworth]

Am I being naive in assuming that these foreign doctors are required to take a (high standard) entrance exam before being able to take up employment here, as well as providing checkable references ?

I'm sorry to say it but you are very naive Graham

I'm also a sucker in thinking that this chancer should have faced criminal charges :-

Matters came to a head three months into his contract at Addenbrooke’s, when he was found to have added a colleague’s name to a pathology report without her knowledge. Ten days later he claimed in a different report that another colleague concurred with his findings, when in fact that colleague had made a different diagnosis. When his employers asked how this claim had come to be in the report, Tosounidis suggested that someone else had added it after he had completed his report. Three days after this incident he was dismissed, and a week later Addenbrooke’s reported him to the General Medical Council, citing “concerns about behaviour, competence and probity.”

[Doc Alan]

One might naively think from reading this thread that indeed our NHS is " awash with foreign shysters " .


• Of the quarter million doctors registered with the GMC to work in the UK, about 2/3 qualified in the UK ; followed by India ( 1/10 ) ; then Pakistan, South Africa, and Nigeria. Around 1/1000 trained in the UK are struck off ; 1/250 of those trained in India, and 1/350 Pakistan.


• Most doctors do a good job, and it does morale no good to read constant criticism .


• Some might think more than 1/3000 doctors should be struck off – but how many is acceptable, given the cost and time of training ? ALL doctors are now " revalidated " – annual appraisal to ensure, as far as possible, they’re competent and fit to practice.


• Some would wish the NHS to have only UK medical graduates. There are enough applicants from our medical schools. But the UK is multicultural, and foreign graduates fill essential posts, including locums, often in undesirable areas, that our graduates don’t want ( and can’t be forced ) to take on. Some foreign graduates also have top medical and surgical jobs in the NHS and our universities. The UK can’t afford to do without the third of its doctors who are foreign ( 1/5 GPs ; 2/5 hospital doctors ) any time soon.


• In the Philippines if you can’t afford to live healthily and have treatment when needed, the consequences are serious. At least in the UK treatment is available to all, even if standards are not uniformly high ( and in places unacceptably low ).



• Should it be the GMC in the dock ? They set standards for undergraduate and postgraduate medical training and they should call doctors to account / protect patients from avoidable harm. We do recognise they have their faults, tending to delay difficult cases for too long.


• GMC requires " acceptable overseas qualifications " which meet standards as close to our own as possible ( http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/regist...lification.asp ). It has powers to check English language skills in international and ( now ) European medical graduates. Local appointment committees MUST scrutinise references in addition to checking qualifications and communication skills.


• The governing body of the GMC ( Council ) has 12 members, of which only half are doctors and half are " lay " ( non medical ) members.

Hearings for doctors whose fitness to practise are called into question are run by the Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service ( MPTS ). The standards are set by the GMC, but the MPTS makes independent decisions, and has the powers to impose sanctions. Not only are most of the hearings held in public, but the panels are made up of a mix of doctors and non-medical people. They are appointed through open competition. Vacancies are advertised on their site (http://www.mpts-uk.org/ ).



• I am not qualified to make judgements on all doctors whose practise falls seriously short of the standards expected of them. Some activities are self-evidently wrong ! But ALL doctors make mistakes. Others in the same specialty are best placed to judge whether the number of mistakes are compatible with their extent of training and responsibility. Should a surgeon be struck off because one patient died during an appendix operation ; or a pathologist likewise because a cancer was missed on biopsy ? Who would then attempt to do their work ?



• These judgements cannot be made by one person alone – hence the balance of doctors and non-medics on the MPTS and GMC. One way to effect improvements is to be on the right committees, including patient representative and clinical commissioning groups.


Thankfully I’m not in the dock, and try to answer members’ questions, as well as picking topics which may be of interest to members from Philippines and UK .

[grahamw48]

Thanks Alan.

[Dedworth]

Thanks Alan after reading your informed write up I realise that after becoming somewhat enraged reading the British Medical Journal report I not for the first time, shot from the hip by glibly stating :-

"I doubt it the NHS is awash with these foreign shysters"

I've now changed it to :-

"I doubt it GMC Disciplinary Hearings are awash with these foreign shysters"

I know Joe would vehemently disagree but I think we do need to consider why a disproportionate number of Doctors up before the Disciplinary Panel are foreign. Here are a couple of links to my previous threads for those wishing to read a bit more detail :-

Half Of Foreign Doctors 'Not Trained Enough'
http://filipinaroses.com/showthread....edical+Council

Indian doctors are FOUR times more likely to be struck off than those trained in Britain
http://filipinaroses.com/showthread....edical+Council

The GMC have made the right decision in striking Ioannis Tosounidis off, I hope it is permanent with no chance of him creeping back into UK employment following appeal

[joebloggs]

I know Joe would vehemently disagree but I think we do need to consider why a disproportionate number of Doctors up before the Disciplinary Panel are foreign. Here are a couple of links to my previous threads for those wishing to read a bit more detail :-

Well Dedworth, you can disagree all you want, I've proved you wrong, the fact is many of the doctors you've posted about were either British or went to uni here

[Dedworth]

Well Dedworth, you can disagree all you want, I've proved you wrong, the fact is many of the doctors you've posted about were either British or went to uni here

Proved me wrong, Many ????

For the sake of good order Joe give us the figures - and I'm talking foreign born "Doctors" not some shyster with a spurious foreign medical qualification on a dodgy student visa who enrolled at a "uni" here whist working as a cashier at the local BP filling station

[joebloggs]

Proved me wrong, Many ????

For the sake of good order Joe give us the figures - and I'm talking foreign born "Doctors" not some shyster with a spurious foreign medical qualification on a dodgy student visa who enrolled at a "uni" here whist working as a cashier at the local BP filling station

Have you forgotten about the names of the docs you posted and I told you many of them had done their degree in the UK or Europe

Spurious foreign medical qualification

first of all the Uni has to be recognised by the World Health Authority then the GMC check their degree and background. I know - I've been to the GMC in Manchester twice

[Dedworth]

Have you forgotten about the names of the docs you posted and I told you many of them had done their degree in the UK or Europe

A couple out of the many I've posted - why do you defend these rogues and not accept the fact that disproportionate number of those struck off are foreign

first of all the Uni has to be recognised by the World Health Authority then the GMC check their degree and background. I know - I've been to the GMC in Manchester twice

Nigerians for example are closely associated with scams and forgeries

[Doc Alan]

I'm glad to have helped both Graham and you, Dedworth


As you know, I also gave informed responses, in depth, to your previous threads .

[London_Manila]

With the amount of litigation flying around these days and the "claim culture" being imported from the USA

I wonder why anyone would want to become a doctor

[Doc Alan]

With the amount of litigation flying around these days and the "claim culture" being imported from the USA
I wonder why anyone would want to become a doctor

Indeed ! But there are still many more applicants than places ( over 10 : 1 ) at medical school

I'm fortunate to have had a rewarding career, in the dock frequently ... as an expert witness !

[Dedworth]

Crooked doctor hands back MBE

Read more: http://www.bedfordshire-news.co.uk/N...#ixzz395jqmT8a

[grahamw48]

A crook is a crook is a crook.



Not to be trusted EVER.

[grahamw48]

I'm with you Dedworth.

Not so easy to pull the wool over our eyes.

[Dedworth]

Haematologist is struck off after lying about his involvement in car crash

http://blogs.bmj.com/test/2014/08/06...-in-car-crash/

Basic background check please Joe UK born, educated ??

[Abigail]

I found this really interesting. I don't have a problem with 'foreign' doctors if they are good at their job and have the necessary skills and abilities. What I have a problem with is doctors of any nationality who do not know what they are talking about but assume that because they have the title of Doctor no matter what they say it is right.

I have a relatively unknown skin condition and am a member of various support groups for it and between us all we have tried every medication they offer us and we know that very few of them work or have limited results. However when you mention that to a doctor they tell you that they are the ones trained and who know best. Well I am sorry but sometimes that is just not the case!!

[Dedworth]

I don't have a problem with 'foreign' doctors if they are good at their job and have the necessary skills and abilities.

I fully agree, we need them because unfortunately as Doc Alan has explained this country is incapable of producing the number of Doctors we require. Sadly 2 young men with bright medical futures were brutally murdered in Borneo yesterday

The purpose of this thread is to highlight the fact that a disproportionate number of Doctors up before the Disciplinary Panel are foreign and many of them should never have been employed by the NHS in the first place

[Doc Alan]

We need them because unfortunately as Doc Alan has explained this country is incapable of producing the number of Doctors we require.

The purpose of this thread is to highlight the fact that a disproportionate number of Doctors up before the Disciplinary Panel are foreign and many of them should never have been employed by the NHS in the first place

I actually explained that - as there are at least 10 applicants for every place at UK medical schools - this country MAY have the capacity to produce the number of doctors we require, but our graduates don't wish ( and can't be forced ) into essential but unpopular specialties in undesirable locations .


Hindsight is a wonderful thing ! The Leeds graduate Dr Harold Shipman should never have been employed by the NHS in the first place . Unfortunately even he probably didn't know he would turn into the UK's worst serial killer. By the time his surviving patients, colleagues, and the GMC realised, he may well have killed well over 200 patients.


Shipman puts " doctors in the dock " into perspective. As I pointed out in another thread, some good did come out of the Shipman Enquiry. This included more accurate death certification; investigation of deaths by coroners ; regulation of controlled drugs in the community; reform of the GMC including non-medical membership ; and formation of a Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service - also with non-medical membership.


Well done to the MPTS for dealing with " rogue doctors " of whatever nationality Vacancies DO arise on the MPTS both for doctors and " lay members ".


Of the 100 ( + ) recommendations in the Shipman Enquiry, revalidation ( appraisal ) to make sure doctors remain up to date and safe is CRUCIAL, in my opinion. Despite the most careful scrutiny of qualifications by the GMC and at a local level ( job interview ), mistakes may be made, and in any case doctors may fall ill or otherwise change subsequently.


Sadly I have to say NO system is foolproof in preventing another " Shipman ". But it's a good deal less likely now than previously.


As the only doctor regularly contributing to the Forum, I have to say my glass is half full, not half empty ( usually red wine ). I prefer to see the POSITIVE aspects of our NHS, with steady improvements in diagnosis and treatment of so many diseases in my 35 years' working lifetime. There have always been many inspirational doctors and other healthcare workers, of many nationalities, to encourage me in my career . But that's off-topic .

[Dedworth]

Thanks Doc ! As you say the system has improved but I feel there is still a way to go. I'm just off for some full glasses at the pub

[Dedworth]

Another chancer "Dr"Abdel Elhassan is struck off :-

Doctor duped college to sit exam after failing seven times

- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news....ios0gZW9.dpuf

Check him out Joe

[Doc Alan]

The NHS is still the envy of many, not just " leftist propagandists ", and not least Filipinos, who, if they fall ill in their own country, may well not recover and even die if they can’t afford treatment .



I’ve explained ( # 29 ) and elsewhere in the Forum, WHY the UK has so many foreign doctors, often in specialties which would otherwise be unfilled, in locations unpopular with UK graduates. With hindsight, some should never have been appointed, and have rightly been struck off. The system has improved in the 14 years since the late Leeds University graduate Dr Harold Shipman was found guilty of murdering his patients. Sadly it is unlikely EVER to be perfect.



• The vast majority of doctors and other healthcare workers ( of whatever nationality ) are dedicated to providing a good service and put their patients first;

• The " silent majority " ( both on the Forum and the UK public ) are happy with their treatment.


Ways to actively do something about perceived shortcomings of our NHS :-

• Informally, then formally if needed, complain about GPs or hospital doctors at a local level ( well established mechanisms to do so );

• Join local patient liaison committees, and/or national patient liaison groups ( every major specialty has one ) ;

• Attend public hearings / become a non-medical panellist on the Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service - which runs the hearings for doctors whose fitness to practise is called into question ;


• Raise healthcare workers’ morale by appreciating GOOD treatment, and (re-)read my post 29 for helpful links ;


• As for " doctors knowing best ", they should ALL practise " evidence-based " medicine ( giving reasons for diagnosis and treatment ). " Informed consent " is a requirement, meaning they have explained planned treatment BEFORE it is given. If you don’t understand, ask !


http://www.gmc-uk.org/concerns/makin...laint/3841.asp

[mickcant]

For me, I try and see the same lady Dr at my local practice, I tell her the truth with what is happening and trust what she recommends in way of treatment.
Mick.

[Dedworth]

Doctor, 57, struck off for massaging patient's breasts with oil when she went to see him about a whiplash injury

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sh-injury.html

[SimonH]

Hope he gets what he deserves when he's looking for the soap in the prison showers

[Dedworth]

Hope he gets what he deserves when he's looking for the soap in the prison showers

He was jailed in January so I guess unfortunately he's out now http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/1...h_examination/

[joebloggs]

You've been caught out before, Dedworth

How can you tell they are not British? Just because they 'trained' in another country doesn't mean they were born there

How many 'foreign' doctors go to British Meds Schools? Are they British ???

[Dedworth]

You've been caught out before, Dedworth

How can you tell they are not British? Just because they 'trained' in another country doesn't mean they were born there

How many 'foreign' doctors go to British Meds Schools? Are they British???

Stop clutching at straws Joe - do British medical students train at non English speaking "Universities" in Karzi States ?

As I said, feel free to check my posts out and I'll delete any that don't meet my criteria on the thread

[joebloggs]

Stop clutching at straws Joe - do British medical students train at non English speaking "Universities" in karzi states ?

As I said, feel free to check my posts out and I'll delete any that don't meet my criteria on the thread

I think you would find many medical degree courses are taught in English

https://imed.faimer.org/details.asp?...4085&psize=100

Can you name some of those 'Karzi' States??

Your thread is 'Doctors in the dock', you've not posted about any British ones yet Dedworth. Having trouble finding any??

[Dedworth]

i think you would find many medical degree courses are taught in English

https://imed.faimer.org/details.asp?...4085&psize=100

can you name some of those 'karzi' states ??

your thread is 'doctors in the dock' you've not posted about any British ones yet dedworth, having trouble finding any ??

I'm not discussing this any further with you, at first I found your nit picking and hair splitting comical, now it is repetitive and tiresome.

I suggest you use your wifes access to BMA, GMC etc and research the names I've posted to see if any are British nationals and while you are at it post in chronological order from now on all struck off Doctors.

As I said to you in post # 11 "Save a bit of time in future though Joe I didn't intend this thread to be purely foreign or foreign trained Docs but to highlight the number of ne'er-do-wells employed in the NHS."

By the way #20 is Scottish

"Karzi states" is my definition of those fostering & harbouring extremists, terrorists, criminals & the like eg Pakistan, Sudan & Nigeria

[joebloggs]

I'm not discussing this any further with you, at first I found your nit picking and hair splitting comical, now it is repetitive and tiresome.

A bit like your thread Dedworth, maybe you should rename it: 'Dedworth in the dock'