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  1. #1
    Respected Member SimonH's Avatar
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    Here's the beer analogy to save anyone looking it up


    Suppose that once a week, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100.If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this..

    The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
    The fifth would pay £1.
    The sixth would pay £3.
    The seventh would pay £7.
    The eighth would pay £12.
    The ninth would pay £18.
    And the tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.
    So, that's what they decided to do.



    The ten men drank in the bar every week and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by £20.” Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.



    The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men? The paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share? They realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33 but if they subtracted that from everybody's share then not only would the first four men still be drinking for free but the fifth and sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

    So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fairer to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage. They decided to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

    And so, the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (a100% saving).
    The sixth man now paid £2 instead of £3 (a 33% saving).
    The seventh man now paid £5 instead of £7 (a 28% saving).
    The eighth man now paid £9 instead of £12 (a 25% saving).
    The ninth man now paid £14 instead of £18 (a 22% saving).
    And the tenth man now paid £49 instead of £59 (a 16% saving).
    Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free.

    But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got £1 out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got £10!"

    "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a £1 too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"

    "That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I only got £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

    "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

    The next week the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important - they didn't have enough money between all of them to pay for even half of the bill!

    And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.


    For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
    For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible


  2. #2
    Respected Member andy222's Avatar
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    So you would like it to stay as it is, Simon?


  3. #3
    Respected Member SimonH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy222 View Post
    So you would like it to stay as it is? Simon?

    I've got no problem in paying my way Andy


  4. #4
    Respected Member andy222's Avatar
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    Exactly, but some can't afford to pay their way through no fault of their own. Like I have said before, there are millions of working people and disabled struggling, but I dont expect you to see it that way.

    They are working just as hard - if not harder - than you.


  5. #5
    Respected Member SimonH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy222 View Post
    Exactly, but some can't afford to pay their way through no fault of their own. Like I have said before, there are millions of working people and disabled struggling, but I don't expect you to see it that way.

    They are working just as hard - if not harder - than you.
    I see it the same way Andy It's the lazy 's who think they're owed a house and benefits that gets to me.

    I started off struggling and grafting but I had aspirations to climb the financial ladder; fortunately I still have those aspirations and I'm still climbing


  6. #6
    Respected Member Ako Si Jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy222 View Post
    Exactly, but some can't afford to pay their way through no fault of their own. Like I have said before, there are millions of working people and disabled struggling, but I don't expect you to see it that way.

    They are working just as hard - if not harder - than you.


  7. #7
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    Simon, Interesting but I think my post is actual cost which each customer is paying from their gross income. That is, it is what each must earn in order to buy the pint.


  8. #8
    Trusted Member stevewool's Avatar
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    Work hard and save harder, then in such a short time you may be be able to enjoy what you have worked so hard for. Around 14 more pay cheques and I will not be paying any more tax for a few years. Will I be classed like the lazy buggers then?


  9. #9
    Respected Member andy222's Avatar
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    In some eyes you will be Steve.


  10. #10
    Trusted Member stevewool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy222 View Post
    In some eyes you will be Steve.
    Am I bothered Andy? Not a big fat chance! I have paid my way in life and I will enjoy what time I have left, Where? Who knows, just chilling out and resting for a good few months


  11. #11
    Respected Member andy222's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevewool View Post
    Am I bothered Andy? Not a big fat chance! I have paid my way in life and I will enjoy what time I have left. Where? Who knows, just chilling out and resting for a good few months
    I hope Cameron doesn't see that Steve, he will make you work till you're 70 to help pay towards the 1.7 billion he owes


  12. #12
    Respected Member les_taxi's Avatar
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    It's a good analogy and one Labour supporters can't argue with. You always want more off people who earn more than you. Not taking into account the fact a lot of the rich employ people. I'm all for people getting on in life. Some people are brighter than others and make more of their lives. Good on 'em, I'm totally working class but don't envy the rich.


  13. #13
    Moderator joebloggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by les_taxi View Post
    It's a good analagy and one labour supporter s can't argue with. You always want more off people who earn more than you. Not taking into account the fact a lot of the rich employ people. I'm all for people getting on in life. Some people are brighter than others and make more of their lives. Good on 'em, I'm totally working class but don't envy the rich.
    Les, these rich people, many pay their workers the minimum wage, not the living wage, and because they pay the minimum wage they are entitled to claim certain benefits so they can survive, meaning all taxpayers are subsidizing these rich people
    http://www.filipinouk.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=870&dateline=1270312908


  14. #14
    Respected Member SimonH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joebloggs View Post
    Les, these rich people many pay their workers the minimum wage, not the living wage, and because they pay the minimum wage they are entitled to claim certain benefits so they can survive, meaning all taxpayers are subsidizing these rich people
    Is that a fact or did you just make it up?


  15. #15
    Moderator joebloggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonH View Post
    Is that a fact or did you just make it up?
    https://www.gov.uk/working-tax-credit/eligibility

    Tell me how I am wrong then ?????
    http://www.filipinouk.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=870&dateline=1270312908


  16. #16
    Respected Member SimonH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joebloggs View Post
    https://www.gov.uk/working-tax-credit/eligibility

    tell me how i am wrong then ?????
    The bit about many rich people paying their staff the minimum wage and therefore tax payers are subsidising the rich


  17. #17
    Respected Member bigmarco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonH View Post
    Is that a fact or did you just make it up?
    Suppose we could say the same for your 50% tax rate.


  18. #18
    Respected Member SimonH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmarco View Post
    Suppose we could say the same for your 50% tax rate.
    My 50% tax rate


  19. #19
    Respected Member SimonH's Avatar
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    Ok, I'll play. It's everyone


  20. #20
    Respected Member SimonH's Avatar
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    But mainly the rich


  21. #21
    Moderator joebloggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonH View Post
    But mainly the rich
    Even the rich who pay their employees a decent wage
    http://www.filipinouk.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=870&dateline=1270312908


  22. #22
    Respected Member SimonH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joebloggs View Post
    even the rich who pay their employees a decent wage
    Yep, even them Not sure where you're trying to get to Joe


  23. #23
    Moderator joebloggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonH View Post
    Yep, even them Not sure where you're trying to get to Joe
    Quote Originally Posted by SimonH View Post
    But mainly the rich
    That includes rich employers who pay a decent wage and those that don't.
    If they all paid a decent wage there would be no need for certain benefits.
    http://www.filipinouk.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=870&dateline=1270312908


  24. #24
    Respected Member les_taxi's Avatar
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    What I take issue with is the Benefit Culture - not people facing genuine hardship or with disabilities, they need help. I DO disagree with the ....... chavs who don't work,never want to work and probably never will.

    The rest of us started work at, maybe 16 and we are where we are now mainly due to choices we made.

    I started off in a warehouse and eventually became a Branch manager of a large plumbers' merchants then decided I would gamble and set up my own business.

    I have worked long hours and missed out on many social gatherings but I'm happy.

    I work hard and play hard.

    Some of my best customers are loaded - they have everything. Some employ people and the ones I have met are not on minimum wage.

    I just hate rich-bashing for the sake of it when some people have worked hard, been cleverer than others and gambled all on making it. Good luck to them.

    Some people have a crap job and moan all the time - it's not my fault or some rich git's fault it is their choice to do that job.

    When I pick up someone who hates their boss/job etc, I say make plans to leave - do what you want to do - but do not moan for the rest of your life about it, or the successes of others when you were not prepared to do anything about it. IT'S DOWN TO US TO CHOOSE our future.


  25. #25
    Moderator joebloggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by les_taxi View Post
    I just hate rich-bashing for the sake of it when some people have worked hard, been cleverer than others and gambled all on making it. Good luck to them.
    If Charles is dodgy, how many others are doing the same ?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...dvantages.html
    http://www.filipinouk.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=870&dateline=1270312908


  26. #26
    Administrator KeithD's Avatar
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    Why do some people think people who claim benefits are scroungers? Oh yeah, the Daily Mail

    Most benefit claimants usually come under the category of working, disabled, sick, elderly, redundant, zero hour contracts.

    Less than 1% of families have two generations claiming, while only 9% of them have never worked. That is about 0.01% of the physically fit working population for those who can't do the maths. One hell of a minority.
    Keith - Administrator


  27. #27
    Respected Member les_taxi's Avatar
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    No one's said that Keith, certainly not me. I did say I despise the ones who can't be arsed to work - of which we have plenty. I said those with disabilities and people who need real help should get it.


  28. #28
    Administrator KeithD's Avatar
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    Going by these stats we need to send all OAPs to Siberia. They are a burden on the country's finances.

    Keith - Administrator


  29. #29
    Administrator KeithD's Avatar
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    Strange, benefits flat lined during the Labour years, but went up with Major & Cameron I didn't expect that. I thought it was a smooth trend up.

    Keith - Administrator


  30. #30
    Respected Member bigmarco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Win2Win View Post
    Strange, benefits flat lined during the Labour years, but went up with Major & Cameron I didn't expect that. I thought it was a smooth trend up.

    More people working and paying taxes. I know it might shock a few but the majority of people unemployed would actually like a job.


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