on public funds

[KeithD]

...and my views are the opposite of Pete, I think people should be able to do what they like with money. Sicknes benefits are given to people to improve quality of life, if that means a happy marriage to a Filipina then great, better than spending tax payers money on alcohol, drugs, ciggies & women............and then wasting the rest!!

We live in a democracy and can have these chats without being shot, even if I'm always right

[charlwill]

...and my views are the opposite of Pete, I think people should be able to do what they like with money. Sicknes benefits are given to people to improve quality of life, if that means a happy marriage to a Filipina then great, better than spending tax payers money on alcohol, drugs, ciggies & women............and then wasting the rest!!

We live in a democracy and can have these chats without being shot, even if I'm always right

I agree with you Boss kEITH!!!

[ginapeterb]

Keith I thought that also, this story is a half story, its lacking certain facts to make it ring true, and Durkhaima's statement that "He does not like to receive' quite frankly is laughable, I mean who does not like to receive free money ?

I complained to Kentucky Fried Chicken about one of their restaraunts about 2 weeks ago, they wrote back to me this week and sent me a voucher in apology for an 8 peice family meal at at any KFC restaraunt of my choice.

Do you think I was not happy to recieve it......GAGU !

Of course I was, Gin Gin and I had a fantastic meal at another KFC on Saturday afternoon, and I can tell you, not paying for it from my own income is a far nicer thought than actually paying for it.

So people who say to me, "They dont like to receive it" they look Gagu !

[joebloggs]

i can understand what your saying peter, but no visa app or case is the same, where does the case worker draw the line for granting a visa or refusing it, there must be many borderline cases, and your dealing with peoples lifes. i know many of immigration rules, as i've had to get to know what they are, when i was applying for ILR for my stepson, who had turned 18. I'm sure they take into account wether the applicant owns their own home and has savings, i can understand if they are on nothing but JSA, then yes,i can understand a refusal, as that benefit is for one person only, and like you say after 6 months it can be means tested.

as for DLA, would you swap places with him peter? i'm sure he would rather work, that be ill and be on DLA, i don't think you would, i know i wouldn't.. , i kinda know how he feels, i've been pushed to the edge myslef a few times, but not far enough as i'm a stuborn , unlike my mother who had a total breakdown, and believe me you would never wish it on anyone, you and a doctor can see and heal your broken bone, but not a broken mind..

[kimmi]

hi everyone,

i do learn a lot reading this thread.. it gives me knowledge and information about how public funds work in UK and I can say now that I have a better understanding on it..

I understand peter's sentiments when he talked about paying high taxes..and i agree when he says that no people will say they don't like to receive it (public funds) but I was moved with Joe's explanation above and for me it depends on the person who are on receipt of public fund on how he will use the money that he is receiving..

and we should be thankful that we're not on their situation,that we are strong enough to work and do the jobs which we think will help us..I know most of the people who are in public funds dont like their situation but there are some who are taking advantage of the opportunity.

we should look at the bright side of life, i know how hard it is to work just to earn money to make a decent and comfortable life but i guess it is better that we should feel blessed that in our own little ways we can help other people.

[ginapeterb]

Charlwill

agree with you Boss kEITH!!!

On what basis do you agree with Keith ? perhaps you can explain your position on why you think he is right in his assertions ?
I would be very happy to hear it, and then you can add your very valuable contribution to the debate.

Keith has his position, of which I respect his opinion, I am duty bound to say I have to 100 per cent disagree with him, but it does not mean we are not mates here at this forum.

I think Keiths argument is fundamentally flawed, by saying that its much better for the benefits to be spent supporting a life with a foreign citizen rather than the money being spent on drugs and alchohol, I think both examples are misuse of public funds.

I am also in agreement that public funds are wasted also in other areas too numerous to mention on this forum, but our debate is whether those funds should be used to supplement the lifestyle of a foreign national.

Joe, I absolutely agree with you, ECO's arbtirarily make decisions that affect peoples lifes, that I have no doubt, its one of the frustrations of the whole system, Joe I would agree with you, that if the applicant has one or two benefits paid to them to enhance their life as Kieth has pointed out, then provided they have other income and provided they can demonstrate that they are not soley reliant on state benefits, I would concede to you, that I have no problem with them being granted entry clearance for their partners.

As for DLA you are 100 per cent spot on, I would not wish to swap places with them, personally I agree with you, I would much rather work than have DLA, of course I would, I would not wish to live on benefits, because I know what restrictions the system places on ones who have to live that way.

I want to be free to earn my own money, and spend it in a way that I would wish, I ask the state for nothing, and expect nothing, if I was ever in a position where I could not work, naturally I may find myself in a position where I needed state help to pay my way through life, on that basis, I refer you back to a couple of posts on this thread I made earlier, I fully accept that there are needs in some cases.

You asked where they draw the line ? to be quite honest with you, I dont know the answer to that question ! thankfully I dont get to make those decisions, yes I am sure there are borderline cases, where income is weak, but the rules remain the same don't they ?

"The sponsor must be able to show evidence that they can support the applicant without recourse to public funds"

If this rule is hard and fast, and from what some of you tell me, its not the case, then many of the cases where sponsors are reliant on public funds, would result in a refusal to issue a visa, as happned in Kennys case, that I saw back in 2004.

At the end of the day, its not down to me who comes to this country and who does not !

I have a viewpoint, its been stated, I do not agree with people who are in receipt of public funds, sponsoring foreign nationals to come and live here, the benefits they claim are paid to them, not to foreign nationals to come and live on at the tax payers expense.

We can all beg to disagree on a freindly basis, it all makes for a good debate, and lets face it, who would want to bring their babae over from the Phils on JSA...

Lets be serious about it ? how long is that going to last !

[joebloggs]

I agree with you about the debate bit

the number of people who are on benefits and want to bring their wife/husband here must be small, as on this forum, i can only remember a couple of people asking about it.

i find most of the visa process a joke, we've mentioned people on benefits, what about low incomes- those who apply for child benefit and tax creds/working creds or use 3rd party support, this would have effected me, but you have to look long term, my wife within months of coming here was looking for a job, took her months to find one, she now works part time for the NHS, but is a doctor of medicine, shes taking 1 of her board exams on thursday, and the next prob in jan, at the moment we're claiming tax creds for our daughter and son, but soon as she starts work as a doc, we will no longer be able to, nor do we expect to claim any benefits, but she plans on being a consultant, and will be then paying a higher rate of tax, most filipinas are educated to a higher level than your average brit, and i'm sure most would not want to or be on any sort of benefit for long.

to me a bigger problem is people who overstay on a visa here, or are illegal immigrants and can go back home and successfully apply for a spouse visa, and then come back legally. they've broken the law and yet it may not effect their spouse visa app.

talking about a burden to the tax payer, what about eastern europeans, or infact any europeans are able to claim child benefit or tax creds for thier children back home, and when they've worked in the uk a year, they are allowed to claim benefits just lthe same as any brit. but my wife on a spouse visa cannot claim for 2 years, even if shes worked for nearly a year.

and finally my moan about cultures, i work with two libyans, and just before one of them got married, he meet his wife to be, twice in a tent in the desert for 1hr a time !, yet that is enough evidence of a relationship to get a visa, but for most of us, its months of emails, letters, visits etc and then wondering if we have enough evidence to convince the case worker.

I want a fair system for all, same rules for everyone, if you need to be working, have a minmum salary, certain amount of savings, evidence of a relationship - 3 months/ 6 months what ever the figure, but the same rules or a point system that applies to everyone, so everyone knows what the rules are and what you need to get that spouse visa..

i know the gov is bringing in a point system for workpermits/immigrants? as they have already for HSMP. and they are going to 'simpilfy' immigration law' , i'll wait and see what they do

[KeithD]

I actually have less in my pocket than when not working , if you include rent/council tax, incapicity, and war pension supplements I lost, I'm down around £200 a week!!!

[charlwill]

Pete, I do understand your sentiment regarding this topic, I live long enough in this country to understand how the public funds work. I do agree with Keith for what said that people should be able to do what they like with money. But of course I am against people receiving benefits from the government, then, they have to spend it with ciggies and alcohol.

[joebloggs]

well, if anyone wants to try it, send me your weekly wage, and i'll send you £59 a week to live off , see if you last a couple of days. , £59 a week will buy you what a pack of cigs and a pint of beer a day? , not sure as i don't drink or smoke, i don't have the money for them luxuries , and remember for some of those on benefits, its prob the only luxury they have ...

[Gie]

Its alright for people to depend on public funds if they are unable to work (e.g. long term sick, had an accident) that means that taxes they pay before are working for them when they need it.

But some people depends on benefits are just plain lazy! And I hate those people! Especially a family with 10 children and both parents are not working and just depending on benefits, duh!

[andypaul]

I think someone who is unable to work and has paided into the system should get something back thats the whole point and why we pay tax (well ok apart from mr admin who dodges them with the help of his accoutnant)
National insurance as it states is an insurance fund just as many of us pay further income protection/house/bulidings and motor insurance.

If the people only claim for themselves and waste their "insurance income" on candyfloss then good for them but then they can afford it as they get free dental care, when they become diabetic due to the sugar again they don't need to bother about prescriptions as its paid for them. Which they don't need to pay for as they don't pay any income tax or national insurance.
I think people need to have cvill responsbilty, yeah i pay National insurance for people like Durkhaima husband because they paid in when working incase i became ill thats how soceity works. We look after one another but if Durkhaimas hubby was drinking ten pints a day and needing far more medical care because of this i would be offended as a citzen of the country we have to have responbilty for our actions. Which from what you have written he would agree with.

Im sure he has savings and insurance payouts which helped him show that you could be supported for two years with out requiring public funds like many of us did. I also bet the savings counted agaisnt him when looking to claim benefits which were rightfully his to look after himself.

My Wife was told by various people that she should claim as much as she could from the goverment now she has ILR. This goes agaisnt all our beliefs and that benefits are for those who geniunely need them like Durkhaima husband and others who have hit hard times, not so my wife can sit at home or subsidise her income.
If only those who really need to be supported were entitled to money from the NI funds im sure higher payouts could be achieved which would benefits those who really deserve it.

There are a small but signifcant minority of the workforce in the UK who im sure we all know could get a job and work but find it easier not to. Strange how fillpinas can find jobs, many with out any qualfications recognised in the UK and not all at the minimum wage.

[joebloggs]

Its alright for people to depend on public funds if they are unable to work (e.g. long term sick, had an accident) that means that taxes they pay before are working for them when they need it.

But some people depends on benefits are just plain lazy! And I hate those people! Especially a family with 10 children and both parents are not working and just depending on benefits, duh!

10 kids , i pitty them, if you've got 10 kids, you got no time for work , and the cost , 10 would drive you


yes i know what you mean, and i don't think there are many like that thou, the parents are just irresponsible, not many people can support 10 kids,i've got trouble with 3, and we both work . the thing is, both parents would have to work, and i dont think they could get a job which paid enough to feed and clothe 10 kids , just my little gal cost us, £8 for her lunch a week, £30 a wk for child minder (less than 1hr aday) to take her to school and kidzone at school £7 a week, thats £45 awk just for one

problem is, as i've said, not many employers will give someone who is long term unemployed a job, like a said before some are unemployable, most thou just need for someone to give them a break, a bit of self esteem and dignity, and a new start

[andypaul]

10 kids , i pitty them, if you've got 10 kids, you got no time for work , and the cost , 10 would drive you


yes i know what you mean, and i don't think there are many like that thou, the parents are just irresponsible, not many people can support 10 kids,i've got trouble with 3, and we both work . the thing is, both parents would have to work, and i dont think they could get a job which paid enough to feed and clothe 10 kids , just my little gal cost us, £8 for her lunch a week, £30 a wk for child minder (less than 1hr aday) to take her to school and kidzone at school £7 a week, thats £45 awk just for one

problem is, as i've said, not many employers will give someone who is long term unemployed a job, like a said before some are unemployable, most thou just need for someone to give them a break, a bit of self esteem and dignity, and a new start

Joe many of us have had a time where we have worried if we will get another job wheter its a week or years. Its a horrible feeling and those who want a new start never stop even if really depressed and down i have had mates in that situation. But if i offer them some work assiting me with some DIY or know of some temp work at my workplace or at an associates they will always apply whatever it is as i would.

But sadly there is a hardcore who just know how to use the system. I've met them, and know some and see them in the pubs as i go past after work. I have had to interview people who come to the interview who will make sure i don't want to offer them the role.
Even sometimes if its a temp job starting the role and somehow managing to get out of it by the end of the day. Those few make me so dam angry as they only do it to keep the benefits from what i belief.