Fiance and her daughter.

[IainBusby]

I am applying for a fiance visa. The only thing is, my fiance's daughter is coming too. The reason is, my gf doesn't want to leave her behind especially as the only ones that can care for her daughter are elderly. I know, ideally, we would get married here, and bring her daughter later. Neither of us want to leave her behind, even for a few weeks.

Do we have to fill in a different VAF4 form for her? And also, I presume that means another circa £515 visa fee?

I would think that it would be better and less complicated if you didn't try to bring your fiancee's daughter at the same time. It would be different if you were married and were applying for a spouse visa. If you arranged to marry very soon after her arrival and then apply for a visa for her daughter after your married, she could be here within 6 months I would think.

In the UK children's welfare is looked upon as the responsibility of the state and the ECO's who deal with your fiancee's and her daughter's visa applications may worry about what will happen with regard to her daughter if you don't actually get married within the six month period, or if, god forbid, you split up. Try to see it the way the pen pushers might see it.
Iain.

[menchkin]

I would think that it would be better and less complicated if you didn't try to bring your fiancee's daughter at the same time. It would be different if you were married and were applying for a spouse visa. If you arranged to marry very soon after her arrival and then apply for a visa for her daughter after your married, she could be here within 6 months I would think.

In the UK children's welfare is looked upon as the responsibility of the state and the ECO's who deal with your fiancee's and her daughter's visa applications may worry about what will happen with regard to her daughter if you don't actually get married within the six month period, or if, god forbid, you split up. Try to see it the way the pen pushers might see it.
Iain.

Good point!

[Ady]

Thanks for the advice Iain - and I agree with a lot of what you said.

I am trying to think of it that way too. However, one thing I learnt after having a Visit Visa refused is that the ECO can use any information against you - even use it against you twice.

For example, when we applied for a visit visa 2 years ago, we stated that Sheila had elderly parents that she had to return home to care for. This was one way that we were trying to prove the futile case that Sheila would return. In the rejection, they said that she had no reason to return home. They also then said that having elderly parents meant that she should not come here to stay, since they relied on her (despite the fact that we added that her sister will take care of the parents during a 3 week stay here).

Now, it really is like being between a rock and a hard place. There is no-one that can take care of her daughter whilst she is here. An ECO may look at it two ways. If we apply without her daughter, they will possibly refuse the visa application as she is leaving her daughter home alone with neighbours. If we apply with her daughter, then they may see it in the same way that Iain sees it. It is impossible to second guess them.

I agree with Iain, what happens if we don't get married in six months? Well, if they don't think we will get married in six months, they will refuse the visa anyhow. What happens if we split up? It is a good question.

The way I see it, it is almost a non-win situation because whatever decision we take in bringing the daughter, the pen-pushers may use it against us. Irresponsibly leaving the daughter behind, or bringing the daughter when there is a chance that a marriage won't take place. Tough decision really. Shei is very against the idea of leaving her daughter behind, whether it be for 3 weeks, 3 months or longer. Only her elderly parents are able to take care of the daughter, and I think that would be too much for them.

[IainBusby]

Thanks for the advice Iain - and I agree with a lot of what you said.

I am trying to think of it that way too. However, one thing I learnt after having a Visit Visa refused is that the ECO can use any information against you - even use it against you twice.

For example, when we applied for a visit visa 2 years ago, we stated that Sheila had elderly parents that she had to return home to care for. This was one way that we were trying to prove the futile case that Sheila would return. In the rejection, they said that she had no reason to return home. They also then said that having elderly parents meant that she should not come here to stay, since they relied on her (despite the fact that we added that her sister will take care of the parents during a 3 week stay here).

Now, it really is like being between a rock and a hard place. There is no-one that can take care of her daughter whilst she is here. An ECO may look at it two ways. If we apply without her daughter, they will possibly refuse the visa application as she is leaving her daughter home alone with neighbours. If we apply with her daughter, then they may see it in the same way that Iain sees it. It is impossible to second guess them.

I agree with Iain, what happens if we don't get married in six months? Well, if they don't think we will get married in six months, they will refuse the visa anyhow. What happens if we split up? It is a good question.

The way I see it, it is almost a non-win situation because whatever decision we take in bringing the daughter, the pen-pushers may use it against us. Irresponsibly leaving the daughter behind, or bringing the daughter when there is a chance that a marriage won't take place. Tough decision really. Shei is very against the idea of leaving her daughter behind, whether it be for 3 weeks, 3 months or longer. Only her elderly parents are able to take care of the daughter, and I think that would be too much for them.

Hi Ady,
I think you mis-understood my line of thinking, they won't see it as irresponsible if your fiancee leaves her daughter behind in the Philippines. If she doesn't apply for a visa for her daughter, they will not consider her daughter's welfare in any way shape or form. They will just make a decision about your fiancee's visa based on the normal criteria they use, ie, your ablility to support her and house her etc and the evidence of your relationship.

It's only if you try to bring her to the UK that this will become part of the equation and as I said in my earlier post, I think this would complicate things greatly.

Also, I think that if she added a note to the application stating that her daughter would be staying with relatives until she was married and settled in the UK, at which time she hoped, with your support, to apply for a visa to bring her over to join you both, that this would show (to their minds) a stronger degree of responsiblity on her part
Iain.

[Ady]

Iain,

I can see where you are coming from. If you put it that way, then yes it makes sense not to include the daughter in the fiancee visa application. However, the genuine problem is that there is no-one to take care of her daughter - no relatives willing or able to do it.

I am considering getting provisional approval from schools, and including quotes for extra tuition in our application - to show the daughter's welfare has been considered. The alternative is to marry in The Philippines, but that is not an option for my own (and families) personal reasons.

I am visiting the Immigration Advisory Service mainly over this matter in a week's time.

I agree with what you say, however sometimes there are reasons why the fiancee will bring a child with them. I have seen it happen with a man bringing his Russian fiancee here, and by countless American and Indian fiancees doing the same thing. I also know the Manila ECOs are stricter than others, particularly when considering Visit visas. One could argue that there is discrimination between poorer nations and G7 stature nations, but I wouldn't suggest that for a moment.

I have taken them both to HK and Singapore, they have returned back home each time. I am even renting a bigger place in readiness for the application. But, you are quite correct to think of it from an ECO view, and this is definately one area that has a potential to trip us up.

[joebloggs]

if i was you, i would apply for a visa for her, it shows more commitment from you, that you do intend to marry if you bring her daughter. strengthens your g/f and her daughters visa app. surely your g/f and you would want her daughter/your future stepdaughter to be at your wedding and in the uk with you

how old is your g/fs daughter ?

if you leave her behind, then you will have to provide evidence when you do apply for a visa for her, showing financial support, also who's been looking after her etc.

is the girls father mentioned on her birth cert? does she have contact with her father? you know your g/f has to prove she has 'sole responsibility' for her daughter.

a good letter of support for your future wife, and mentioning your future stepdaughter, stating her future is as important to you as your futures wife's is. and leaving her behind is not a option as your family would not be complete if separated should help

good luck

[Ady]

Thanks Joe... Iain is right too, as are you. It is how the ECO potentially looks at these things. That is the big unanswered question. But, the way you put it is certainly something that may find itself in our cover letters ;-)

My g/f has sole responsibility following the annulment.

[benb]

if i was you, i would apply for a visa for her, it shows more commitment from you, that you do intend to marry if you bring her daughter. strengthens your g/f and her daughters visa app. surely your g/f and you would want her daughter/your future stepdaughter to be at your wedding and in the uk with you

how old is your g/fs daughter ?

if you leave her behind, then you will have to provide evidence when you do apply for a visa for her, showing financial support, also who's been looking after her etc.

is the girls father mentioned on her birth cert? does she have contact with her father? you know your g/f has to prove she has 'sole responsibility' for her daughter.

a good letter of support for your future wife, and mentioning your future stepdaughter, stating her future is as important to you as your futures wife's is. and leaving her behind is not a option as your family would not be complete if separated should help

good luck

Ahh...you beat me to it again!

Commitment is a crucial factor for fiancee visa! I would certainly go with Joe's advice instead.

[quickwillow]

Any more news on your application,
Did you get provisional approval from a school? As I have thought about this for evidence to prove that I’m taking my future son’s welfare in to consideration.
The other thing I was going to do was get a certificate of no impediment, to strengthen my evidence but still plan to marry in the UK what do you think?

[quickwillow]

I’m soon to start the process for a fiancée visa she also has a son just turned 5 yrs old and have found this thread quite helpful, I have been worried about which path to take and what would be best and quickest for a successful application.
In my mind it would be far better for my fiancée to adjust to living in the UK with her son by her side, and not have to go through the emotional trauma of leaving him behind. It also goes without saying what this would do to her son, as they have never been apart before.
This has been a bit of a moral dilemma for me as I feel I already know what would be best for the kid, but have been worried about trying to satisfy what the ECO want.
Maybe I should mention I work in social services but with adults with learning difficulties, and have seen the emotional damage that family separation does to both parties. As the government’s policies in care tend to be to keep the family unit together, I would hope the ECO would be sensitive this also.

[joebloggs]

if you have accommodation for them both without overcrowding and you have finances to support them without the need for 'recourse to public funds' then your only problem left is that of 'sole responsibility'

is the father named on the birth cert?, does the child still see his father?, is the child's mother still in talking terms with the father?..

it's better if you bring them both together, as you have already said, they have never been apart.